LARRY KING LIVE Warren Jeffs is in Custody

CNN August 30, 2006

Coming up, inside the strange world of polygamist Warren Jeffs from two women who say they escaped their lives as one of his many wives. And, from an investigative journalist who spent years investigating the crazy cult-like society of Colorado City. That's next on LARRY KING LIVE. KING: Warren Jeffs is in custody. Joining us from West Jordan, Utah is Carolyn Jessop. At age 18 she was forced to wed 50-year-old Merrill Jessop, a follower of Warren Jeffs. At age 35 under the cover of darkness she took her eight children and fled her abusive marriage and the FLDS. In Phoenix, Arizona is Pennie Petersen, she fled her family and the FLDS at age 14 after learning she was about to be forced into a polygamous marriage with a 48-year-old man who'd molested her. Her father had multiple wives. She has 38 brothers and sisters. She was on this program last night. And in Phoenix as well, Michael Watkiss, investigative reporter for KTVK in Phoenix, producer of "Colorado City and the Underground Railroad." You'll be seeing clips from this award-winning documentary during our discussion. He was raised as a mainstream Mormon. Mike says he has polygamists in his own ancestral tree. Michael, we'll begin with you. What do you make of this whole Jeffs story? MICHAEL WATKISS, KTVK INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, I think my first impression Larry, is I'm very grateful that this arrest went down without any violence. The big concern was that Mr. Jeffs travels with bodyguards, they're often armed, and there was the real concern, in this culture there are a lot of women and children. We've been crusading for action for many years, and the big concern was that one of the truly innocent would be hurt. This was the perfect case scenario for police officers. They wanted to pick Warren Jeffs on the road. They did that. This heads-up trooper -- I'm actually in Las Vegas, Nevada standing in front of the facility where Warren Jeffs is now locked up, Larry. This heads-up trooper put Warren Jeffs behind bars, and now he can go to a court and answer the charges. KING: So you're not in Phoenix, you're in Las Vegas. WATKISS: Actually, we -- yeah, we started in Phoenix but we came over to Vegas soon as we heard the news, and we have been standing outside the jail awaiting the extradition hearing tomorrow to determine whether Mr. Jeffs will go to the state of Utah or the state of Arizona because both states now have charges pending. KING: Carolyn Jessop, at age 18 you were forced to wed a 50-year-old man who you did not love, a follower of Warren Jeffs. What was your situation at age 18? Were you a member of that group? Were you in a Mormon family? What was happening in your life? CAROLYN JESSOP, FLED POLYGAMOUS COMMUNITY LED BY WARREN JEFFS: Well, I was actually born into the fundamentalist church, which is not a part of the Mormon church and it goes back many generations. And the marriage was actually more of a situation where I was coerced into the marriage. Women are born into this, we're not allowed a lot of exposure. We're not allowed to date. We don't have a lot of options other than the options that we are given when it comes to marriage. KING: What about your parents? JESSOP: My parents were also an arranged marriage. Their marriage was not based on love or courtship or that they decided to marry each other. They were assigned to each other. KING: Because of that shouldn't they have even more so objected to your marrying someone you didn't know? JESSOP: No. This actually was more of a reason why they supported it and believed in it. It was something that they had done in their own lives and they believed that is it was right and that there was -- that a woman could have a good life by being obedient to the prophet and doing what he assigned her to do. KING: What was it like to live in that setting? Warren Jeffs was the prophet for that group, right? JESSOP: At the time that I was married, actually, Leroy Johnson was the prophet. He was the prophet for around six months and then died, and then Warren's father became the prophet. So during the course of my marriage for nearly 17 years then Warren's father was actually the prophet. Warren was only his son. And the last six years of Rulon's life then Warren took over and actually began controlling the community and stepped into the leadership position. KING: Do you know Warren well? JESSOP: I know Warren very well. In fact, around nine of my stepdaughters are married to Warren. And Naomi, who was with him at the time they took him is my stepdaughter. KING: What is his appeal? JESSOP: Well, he actually doesn't have a lot of appeal. It's more of a position he inherited from his father. And when his father was in control, then he -- after his father's stroke, then Warren stepped in and did all the public speeches for his father, basically took over. And then after his father died he just pronounced that he was now the prophet and the community accepted that. KING: Did his father have more appeal? JESSOP: Some. It's more of a position that is inherited by title. His father was the last living apostle for the FLDS church. And so he was in our minds the only man that could become the prophet. KING: Before we get to Pennie, Michael, a man without charisma can have this kind of following? WATKISS: Yeah. I think the mistake that a lot of the public makes in trying to understand this story, they want to look for some sort of charismatic figure, the David Koresh or somebody along that -- this guy didn't just come out of the woodwork and build himself his own little Waco, unlike Mr. Koresh. Basically, he inherited a mantle of power that dates back generations. His father assumed it from a man before him, and then as Carolyn is saying, that his father became very feeble in his old age and Warren basically sort of insinuated himself into the leadership role after his father's death, he claimed the power. But people say it's a self-proclaimed prophet. Thousands of people proclaimed this man a prophet of God, and so again, he's not some charismatic svengali kind of figure. He inherited this long line, long tradition of power, and that's I think the strength of all of this. People are raised in this for generations. They've been around for 100 years. And my guess is they'll be here 100 years from now no matter what happens to Warren Jeffs. KING: We'll take a break, come back, get Pennie Petersen's story, continue with Michael Watkiss and Carolyn Jessop, might include some of your phone calls too. Don't go away. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to polygamist doctrine a man must have at least three wives if he is to make it into the highest realm of heaven, the celestial kingdom. And for a woman, the one and only way to get to heaven's highest realm to be the obedient wife of a righteous polygamous man. (END OF VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: Now let's get Pennie Petersen's story, she's in Phoenix. She fled her family and the FLDS at age 14. What happened? What caused you to flee, Pennie? PENNIE PETERSEN, FLED HER FAMILY & POLYGAMOUS COMMUNITY AT 14: I was to be married off to a 48-year-old man and to become his fifth wife. KING: And who determined this? Who said you will marry him? PETERSEN: Leroy Johnson. He was the prophet at the time. KING: And that's the -- you were a member of that church? PETERSEN: Yeah. Born and raised in Colorado City. KING: That's in the FLDS? PETERSEN: Yes, FLDS church. KING: Is everybody in Colorado City in that church? PETERSEN: Used to be. You know, every time there's a new prophet or a prophet dies, then you have a little split. And that's been going on for a hundred years. I mean, you have a prophet die, half the people leave, half of them stay. Just like with Warren. He lost followers when his father died and he took the reins. Some people believed that Fred Jessop should have been prophet. So you have a split sometimes and you have followers leave. But he remained with the most followers. KING: And this church split off from the Mormons because it believes it's the true church because of polygamy, right? PETERSEN: It was actually created because it stayed with the polygamy in their doctrine. And it was -- they were part of the Mormon church, and they went down to Colorado City and built this because it was in a remote area where they wouldn't be bothered. KING: What did your parents say about forcing you to marry someone at age 14? PETERSEN: They thought it was definitely something I should do, it was God's will. KING: And how at age 14 were you able to get away, did you even think straight? PETERSEN: I don't think I was thinking straight, but I knew enough to sneak out in the middle of the night, and I'd called friends and they came in from Vegas and whisked me off in the middle of the night and took me to safety. KING: And how were you raised? PETERSEN: I would go in, I'd clean your house, I'd walk your dog, I'd scrub your cars. You just couldn't live without me. KING: Did you see your mother and father? PETERSEN: No. I stayed out for quite a while. And then I got a job and my dad found me and he agreed to let me stay out if I gave him half of my paycheck. So I gave him half my paycheck, and I stayed out. KING: Did you eventually marry? PETERSEN: I did. KING: Are you still married? PETERSEN: Yes. KING: Are you Mormon? PETERSEN: No, I'm not. KING: Well, because you could have been. I mean, you were originally a Mormon, right? Or this bastardized version of same. PETERSEN: Yeah, well, you know, being raised in FLDS, you know, it kind of shies you away from any religion. So I just, you know -- I take care of myself and pray to God myself. I do well on my own. KING: Michael, you've studied this. What is FLDS? WATKISS: Well, it's the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And it is a split-off a long time ago from the Mormon church. As you know, Larry, the bottom line is the Mormon church disavowed the practice of polygamy in about 1890, and the church has gone in that direction. The fundamentalists will look you in the eye and tell you they are the real keepers of the faith. That's an issue for theologians. The issue that we've focused on certainly in our work is not talking about people's beliefs but talking about people's behaviors. You can believe whatever you want. But when people break the law they need to be held accountable. And this culture in Colorado City under the leadership of Warren Jeffs has taken a very sinister turn during the last 10 years, pulling all of the kids out of public school, marrying the girls younger and younger, casting the boys out. All the things you've reported on. And the focus now needs to be on crimes committed, not beliefs. And that I think is what prosecutors are doing in both Utah and Arizona. KING: Isn't it true Michael that a lot of the law in Colorado City are members of that faith? WATKISS: Listen, I've been having run-ins with the cops in Colorado City for a lot of years Larry. And many of us think that they sort of have been the Gestapo for Warren Jeffs and his thugs up there. They're the guys who run the young boys out of town. They're the guys who go out and drag the young girls back when they run away. They're the men who take women who get out of line, adult women, and toss them into mental institutions. The cops up there are a bunch of bad guys. Some of them have been decertified, had their badges taken away. I think the rest, the rest of the polygamist cops are on the verge of having their badges taken away. That'll be a huge step. KING: We'll take a break and when we come back we'll have some e-mails and calls as well. Let's check in with Anderson Cooper, the host of "AC 360." Anderson, what's up tonight? ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Larry, coming up, we're going to go in depth on the arrest of polygamist leader Warren Jeffs, including an exclusive interview with his sister. We'll talk about what may happen to Jeffs' sect with the so-called prophet now in jail. We're also going to get a live report from Baghdad about the nearly 50 people killed in Iraq today, a bloodbath even by Iraqi standards. The war there of course a sticky issue for President Bush. We'll tell you the new Iraq talking points from the administration. No surprise, they're not sitting well with democrats. We'll explain all that and more Larry, at the top of the hour. KING: That's another interesting edition of "AC 360" at 10:00 eastern, 7:00 pacific. And we'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Did you know that Winston Blackmore was here today? Winston Blackmore is a man who says he has at least 10 wives and as many as 100 children. He was once a leader in Jeffs' church but was ex-communicated and now lives in British Columbia. He's believed to be detested by Jeffs and therefore, persona non grata among Jeffs' supporters. WINSTON BLACKMORE, POLYGAMIST: I'm going to give you a little preamble of our history in this place. TUCHMAN: But amid a tense atmosphere, he came back to Colorado City, Arizona to dedicate a monument to families separated during a polygamy raid by police. (END OF VIDEO CLIP) KING: That's from a report by our own Gary Tuchman. Michael Watkiss, what do you know about this guy? WATKISS: Well, I should give you a confession up front. Winston Blackmore and I have sort of a long history together. He apparently has a website, or had a website where he identifies good reporters and bad reporters, and I'm happy to tell you that he identified me, I'm told, as the worst reporter of them all. Clearly, Winston Blackmore does not like me very much because we have been a thorn in the side of polygamist men who insist on taking underage girls. Winston Blackmore has taken underage brides. He clearly in this whole drama has positioned himself to be the anti-Warren. He's showing up a lot down in Colorado City. He leads a large community up in British Columbia. He's clearly one of the players with this drama swirling around Warren Jeffs, he's on the periphery, and I would say that he is certainly a likely candidate to be a new prophet in his own right. Only time will tell. But you know, Winston Blackmore has a lot of skeletons in his own closet. The bottom line is these guys insist on taking young girls as brides, and I think that's because if they let women get an education and get mature most of them wouldn't want to marry one of these characters. But the bottom line is Winston Blackmore's a player in all this. KING: Carolyn Jessop, we have an e-mail from Palwasha in Phoenix. Question, "The kids that are being married to adults, do they know what is happening to them is wrong?" JESSOP: Absolutely not. They are not aware that this is illegal in many cases. They have no idea that they have those kinds of rights. They're basically told that this is what the prophet wants them to do and if anybody objects to it then they are persecuting the prophet and they are persecuting religious beliefs that they have no right to persecute. So the children basically believe that if somebody objects to it that they're breaking the laws of the constitution to object. KING: Salt Lake City as we go to calls. Hello. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi Larry. First of all, I'd like to say I really like your show. KING: Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I think it's great these girls that have been able to run from the polygamists. But you know, what is wrong with our authorities? I am so angry that they are not protecting these girls. KING: Pennie? PETERSEN: Well, I was -- I started running away when I was 9 years old, and I would be brought back. I'd get to Fredonia or Kanab. I got to Flagstaff once. And police there would drag me back kicking and screaming. And at 14 I finally made it out. So, you know, this is something that nobody wanted to touch. It was Arizona -- nobody's wanted to touch it because of the political issues around it. KING: Carolyn, why do you think? JESSOP: Well, it's just been historical since 1953, when the authorities got into polygamy, it went so badly for them that they've just basically wanted to ignore it, and they have been pretty successful in ignoring it for the last 50 years. It's just been recently that there's been enough people and victims come forward that they're not in a position to continue ignoring it. KING: We'll take a break and be back with some more moments and a couple more phone calls as well. Don't go away. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when he pulls these girls out of school, that's when he's married to them and he's afraid they're going to go to school and the teachers are going to see the girls pregnant. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pennie Petersen is also a guide helping escapees along their always difficult and sometimes dangerous trek to freedom, a perilous path that Pennie herself traveled when she was only a teen. PETERSEN: I was 14 years old and they come, told me I was going to marry a man 48 years old, I was going to be his fifth wife. I didn't want to do it. I ran. Fast and as hard as I can go. (END OF VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: We're back. Portsmouth, Ohio. Hello. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi Mr. King, how are you? KING: Fine. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just had a couple questions for the lady there, Ms. Petersen. Looking back on everything, do you feel like you were brainwashed in any way? KING: Do you Pennie? PETERSEN: Yeah, I was definitely brainwashed. I believed I was -- when I left that I was going straight to hell. But it was worth it to me because I figured if I was going to live eternity in hell it was worth it to at least have some kind of life here. So it was worth it to leave, you know. And I really honestly believed that. And then thank God, you know, I don't now. KING: Montreal, hello. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, do we have access to their public records of births so that these children that are born of these illegal polygamous marriages are able to obtain child support rights and follow through with the delivery of the moneys or are these people all on public welfare? KING: Carolyn, what is the story on that? JESSOP: Well, the birth control records are public, as far as I'm aware, but most of the people claim that they're single mothers, and they are on welfare. They're welfare circumstances since Warren took over that community has become extreme. The community has been plummeted into an unnatural level of poverty. And so it's either as a mother your option is to go on welfare or your children starve. So that's one of the reasons that so many of these people are on welfare. KING: Michael Watkiss, how many are there? How many people in America do we know are polygamists? WATKISS: Well, I've heard estimates from 40,000 to 60,000 to 100,000. You know, the thing about the polygamist community, communities, Larry, I should say is they've been hiding in plain sight, again, as CNN has liked to say. And that's the truth. There are a lot of them. The bottom line is they don't keep good records because they're hiding and they have been for generations. They're great at hiding. KING: Doesn't sound like a lot. 40,000? WATKISS: I don't know. 40,000, it covers all of North America, really, Larry. I don't know if it's a big deal or not a big deal. But I think if you're a young girl born in essence into slavery or you're a teenage boy cast out, a woman who is brutalized because she dares to speak her mind, you know, one, 20, 100,000, it's significant. Law officers have ignored this for far too long and it's high time they're doing something about it. KING: And Michael, it's not going away, is it? WATKISS: I had polygamist ancestors, Larry. They were practicing plural lifestyles 100 years ago. My guess is there will be polygamists in the United States 100 years from now. The bottom line is a message has been sent, if you break the law within the confines of that lifestyle -- they're now going to go after you. And that's a very important message. KING: Carolyn, do you think it's going to change? JESSOP: I think it is changing. I think that this arrest of Warren is sending a message to all polygamist communities that child abuse is not going to be tolerated. These charges against Warren from these different states are actually in regard to child abuse, not polygamy. And I think that until the crimes in polygamy are prosecuted they're not going to stop. And it's just going to escalate. KING: Pennie, do you think it's going to change? PETERSEN: I hope it changes. It needs to change. I think that they've been sheltered long enough. I think we -- the authorities and this country has ignored it long enough. It's time that we are -- that all the kids out there and the women are protected. It's due. KING: And Michael, quickly, are you optimistic? WATKISS: Well, things are changing. And the two women you have on this broadcast are some of the real heroes. When this story's written, handful of women, brave, courageous, revolutionary women got out, Pennie has really led the charge in the state of Arizona with a couple of other very brave women who got away from Colorado City. The story will be told that this is insurgency. Women got out and they said we're not going to allow what happened to us, happen to our little brothers and sisters. It's a very (INAUDIBLE) story. KING: Thank you very much as always. Carolyn Jessop, Pennie Petersen and Michael Watkiss, we really appreciate it. (INAUDIBLE) in Utah, Pennie in Phoenix and Michael Watkiss in Las Vegas. Right now we head to New York, Anderson Cooper will host "AC 360" with lots of tidbits tonight. Lots of interesting stuff, Anderson?

CNN.com Originally broadcast August 30, 2006

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