ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
 Polygamist Custody Battle Under Way
 
CNN
 
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We continue with the breaking news, and we have the latest on the polygamist sect fighting for its children.

The largest child custody case in American history got under way today, and just wrapped up. Chaos in the courtroom is the word we heard a lot today, inside that courtroom, mothers and lawyers and the state of Texas battling over some 416 children of Warren Jeffs' polygamist sect.

David Mattingly is just outside the courthouse, as it has just ended for the day.

David, what is the latest?

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, a very compelling story today from one of the state's lead witnesses, the supervising investigator for Child Protective Services. She was talking about how the state had no idea what they were getting into when they went into that compound two weeks ago.

They originally thought there was only 100 to 150 people there. They were very wrong about that. And they were also looking for one 16-year-old pregnant girl who claims she had been abused. But, when they went in there, they didn't find that 16-year-old girl. Instead, she said they found many more.

That number of many more turned out to be five. And then the attorneys for the families came back and said, well, if you have been able to confirm that there were five teenage girls who got pregnant and married here, why not just take them into custody and give the rest of the children back to their parents? That's when the state started explaining its rationalization about this.

First of all, they said these girls were telling them that, whenever the prophet tells them to marry, they will marry. They believe you're never too young to marry and that the greatest thing that they can presidency do, the greatest blessing in their lives, is to have children.

They said, for that reason, because of that belief system that is built into these children, they feel like they cannot send any of them back there, because, then, every child would grow up and be a potential victim of that abuse, as they're describing it. They cannot send back the young men, they say, because those men would grow up to participate -- Anderson.

COOPER: So, David, essentially, what the state is saying, no matter what, even if we only have these five 16-year-old girls -- or girls who got pregnant or married at the age of 16, which is illegal -- no matter what happens, we can't send any of these kids back, ever?

MATTINGLY: They're not saying ever.

Typically, in state law in the state of Texas, it's always the default thinking that you try and find a way to put the kids back with their parents. That means you have to remove the source of abuse, remove that thinking. How the state might do that, nobody has any idea.

We're at the very beginning of these cases. This is just another. This is just a 14-day hearing on what is one of many steps for these children. But taking them away from their parents is the last option. It's this -- the option that no one really wants to do on a permanent basis.

COOPER: At this point, David, do we have a full understanding of what the state's case is? I mean, you talked about the state saying they found five underage girls who -- and was it that they were pregnant or that they had married?

MATTINGLY: These girls were married, and they had been pregnant. Some of them had already had their children. But that's what they found, these five girls.

And they're telling us exactly what we saw in these court documents about a week ago. They were complaining of what they described as a prominent practice, in which these young girls were groomed at a young age to accept to be married to older men.

And there was one document that was presented that investigators found inside a safe. On that list, they say they had to list the names of 10 girls who were 17 and under who were married and had children. Some of them would have been pregnant at the age of 16. And some of these girls were married to men almost three times their age.

So, those were the very big pieces of evidence that the state was showing. That big question, though, why did you take all the kids, it goes back to the practice that the state says is leading to this abuse.

COOPER: And we have got our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, also standing by, as well as Carolyn Jessop.

But, David, I want to continue with you just for a moment.

What was it like, the scene inside the courtroom? I mean, you got 416 kids. You have more than 300 attorneys representing those kids. You have attorneys representing the FLDS. We saw some of the artist's rendering inside the courtroom. It looks like a pretty small space. How are they trying all these cases at once? How does this work? MATTINGLY: Well, that's actually a large courtroom by some standards that I have seen. But it is just so full of people.

I was lucky enough to have one of the few media passes. And I'm sitting in the back of the room. On one side, you see about 50 members of the FLDS. The women are outnumbering the men about 2-1. They have about 20 attorneys with them.

On the other side, there are scores of attorneys representing each of these 400 children. Now, all of those attorneys have the right to ask questions. They have the right to object. They have the right to approach the bench and talk to the judge.

And, believe me, a lot of them have been doing that. So, we're not moving very quickly. That might sound very chaotic, but, surprisingly, the judge is keeping things moving. And she seems to be making the rules as she goes along just to deal with this new territory that we're going into. No one has ever had to deal with this kind of situation in a courtroom. And she's sort of managing it as she goes.

COOPER: David Mattingly, stand by outside the courtroom.

We're here with our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, as well, as I said, Carolyn Jessop, who is the author of the book "Escape," her memoir about life inside the polygamist sect.

Jeffrey, what do you make of what happening today?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Well, it's a start of the government's case, but it sounds like they have a long way to go, because all you have so far is an agent testifying about what she saw, what she heard. And it seems fairly vague at this point.

This is not direct evidence of child abuse. This is evidence that she appears to have gotten from other people inside the sect when she was there. This document, which purports to show marriages involving underage people, there will certainly be a big argument whether that's even admissible evidence at all. I'm sure the...

COOPER: Why would it not be admissible?

TOOBIN: Because it would be hearsay evidence. It would not be evidence that it actually took place.

COOPER: But if this is a sect that has a proven track record of following a certain ideology, isn't that proof?

TOOBIN: Well, not -- it's not specific proof.

I mean, the proof would be, is this what the law calls a business record? Is it kept in the regular course of business? Then a judge might actually honor and pay attention to what the record shows. I think most judges will require not just an investigator to testify, but one of the underage women to testify, girls to testify, because that's direct evidence of abuse here. I think there is some distance between the actual crime of underage sex and the testimony that came out in court today.

COOPER: Carolyn Jessop, from your experience, from your years in this compound or in the FLDS community, not this specific compound, can you say categorically there is abuse taking place?

CAROLYN JESSOP, FORMER POLYGAMIST WIFE: There was abuse in Merril's (ph) family. It was rampant. And there was in the community.

COOPER: Merril is the man who now runs the FLDS?

JESSOP: Yes. Yes. Abuse when I was even a child was just a fundamental, normal way of life. It was as common as the sun coming up in the morning.

COOPER: What sort of abuse?

JESSOP: A lot of violence towards children, I mean, children being whipped.

I remember, on the school bus, seeing a girl sitting next to me, and her arm had been burnt by her father with a lightbulb. I mean, it was just -- it was just common. And it was just -- it was just a normal thing. And nobody really saw it as abuse. It was considered good discipline. It was a way to control your family.

COOPER: So, you're saying the abuse is not just the forced marriage or these so-called spiritual marriages of underage girls, who then get pregnant; you say the abuse is actual physical?

JESSOP: Well, it was very physical when I was a child. And it was physical for women, too. I remember a common thing going into the grocery store seeing women with black eyes and bruises from their husbands beating them.

And if I asked my mother about it, it was just something she didn't like to talk about. But it was just a way of life. I mean, it wasn't really seen as abuse. And I didn't understand domestic violence until I was 30, in my early 30s. I didn't even know it existed.

COOPER: What do you think should happen here? The state kind of saying today, well, look, we can't return these kids to this community because there is this pattern here.

JESSOP: Well, you know, Anderson, I think they need to look at mental health.

It's well known that cult dynamics and cult mentality and mind control is actually a form of mental illness. I think that they need to do a full psychological mental health test on the mothers to see if they're actually in a place where they could protect their child.

COOPER: Does it surprise you -- you know, we have heard from these mothers the last several nights. For the first time ever, they're coming forward. It's obviously a systematic effort on their part to get their side of the story across.

And it's understandable that they would want to do that. When you see the mothers giving a tour of the compound, when you see the mothers crying and saying, "We want our kids back," and -- but not answering other questions about how old their kids were when they got married or had babies, what do you think?

JESSOP: Well, it's just -- it's appalling to me.

I feel like that my ex-husband, Merril, has put these women as human shields up to hide his crimes behind. And I feel like that they are desperate having their children taken from them, and they believe, if they do what he tells them to do, that they will get them back.

In many ways, I don't see what they're demonstrating that they really believe they're going to lose their children. I think they believe, if they're perfectly obedient, God will give them back to them. And it -- to me, it feels like a P.R. campaign. They're -- they're scripted. And they're evasive. When you ask them questions they have not been scripted on, they don't understand how to answer. That's when I see terror in their eyes, because if they answer that in a way where they give out information they should not be giving out, they could be in trouble. They could be in a lot of trouble.

COOPER: David Mattingly, court resumes tomorrow, does it?

MATTINGLY: That's right. It does, Anderson.

And following up with that thought, I have been able to talk to some of the FLDS family members there in court. During all of the breaks, I go up and approach them. They're slowly warming up to me.

They're telling me now that it -- several of them are saying -- even the fathers are saying that, yes, 16-year-old girls do get married there, but it does not happen very often. And now their argument is that you do not have to take all of the children because a few 16-year-old girls get married to adult men.

So, they are saying to me privately: Yes, this is going on, but it is not prevalent. We believe that our children should come back to us. It's not happening in my house, and it's not happening in my family.

TOOBIN: Well, I just think that's a very important point to emphasize, that you're talking about hundreds of children here. And the law regards removing children from their parents as a very extreme step.

So, some of these mothers may well be saying to David and will certainly be saying in the court, wait a second. All right, maybe some 15-year-olds got married, but I didn't get married. This is my child. Don't take my child away based on what happened to some kid that I might not even know.

So, I think the judge has an incredibly difficult assignment.

COOPER: No doubt about it. With 416 kids and more than 300 attorneys, I can't even imagine.

Jeff Toobin, thank you.

Carolyn Jessop, thank you as well, and David Mattingly as well.

We will continue to follow this throughout the hour. If there are any new developments, we will bring them to you live.

Up next, we have a new development in the polygamy showdown. A news conference just wrapping up at the courthouse. The FLDS attorneys speaking out. We have details coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Just outside the courthouse in Texas where a judge will soon determine who gets custody of the 416 children who were taken from the FLDS compound earlier this month. Soon. We're not sure.

Just moments ago, a news conference wrapped up. FLDS attorney Rod Parker, who we spoke to last night, talking to reporters. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROD PARKER, ATTORNEY FOR FLDS: Well, it's interesting that I think what's happening in there is that the CPS is trying to put the church on trial rather than talk about these individual cases. But in reality, what it's turning into is the CPS is on trial for its high- handed and precipitous tactics in removing these children.

At one point, the -- the CPS supervisor testified that they removed the children because they were afraid. And when asked why they were afraid, it was because there were tanks and armed men in riot gear on the property. So they created the very situation that caused the fear that caused us to remove the children.

They've also -- I think, in large part it's become very clear that there are a very, very small number of people in that arena over there who actually qualify as being even remotely within the possibility of the burden of proof that the state has to meet in this case.

So we're feeling like things are going well. I still feel that the -- that the format of this hearing is very difficult, having this many lawyers and this many parties all trying to have their cases handled at once. It's a very difficult thing.

I know the court is doing the best it can, but it's -- I think many of the family feel that their particularized, individual interests aren't being addressed just because of the format of the hearing. That's something we've been concerned about all along.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: The hearing, of course, resumes tomorrow. And Erica, what we were hearing from David Mattingly, of course, earlier tonight, at the top of the news, when this was breaking news, when the hearings had just ended, he was talking about how, for the state, this is not just about the five or the handful of young, underage girls who they have found thus far who may be pregnant or got married underage. They say there's this systematic abuse, and therefore, they can't return all these kids back to the FLDS compound.

HILL: Which I think was so interesting to everybody, to hear those words: we feel these kids cannot go back.

COOPER: Right.

HILL: When you're talking about more than 400 children.

COOPER: Which is why, I think, Rod Parker is talking about the state putting the church on trial.

HILL: Right.

COOPER: He says that's what the state is trying to do. They're actually putting the church on trial. He said it's actually now the state is on trial, you know, the words of -- he's a defense attorney for the FLDS. So you would expect him to say such. But...

HILL: Absolutely.

COOPER: We'll see what happens tomorrow when court resumes.

HILL: It definitely gets more interesting by the day.
 
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Originally broadcast April 17, 2008
 
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